Celebrate Neurodiversity

Learn how to develop a culture that supports and attracts this valuable talent pool.

Transcription:

Paola Peralta (00:06):

Which is a quality assurance company where 90% of the employees are on the autism spectrum. And Louis Chesney Neurodiversity Program Manager at RethinkCare, a leading global behavioral and mental health platform supporting neurodiversity. Now, full transparency. I know Louis and Tara very well, so this is going to be very conversational, but I feel like neurodiversity feels like such a new topic being talked about right now, but it's not necessarily a new thing employers are facing, whether they know about it or not, it really is very, very prevalent. And so what is kind of the landscape that most employers are facing, even if they don't know that they're facing it?

Tara May (00:46):

Absolutely. So my favorite thing to say, right, and she's heard me say this before, is that your workforce is Neurodiverse, whether you know it or not. So what we know today is that about 20% of people have some sort of Neurodivergent. 5.4 million people have ADHD one in 40 something people is on the autism spectrum. And we're a lot better at diagnosing today than we were in the seventies, eighties, and nineties. A lot of people are finding out through their own children's diagnosis and their doctors or their psychiatrists are saying, well, you have a lot of these traits too, and they're recognizing them in themselves. So if you have an organization with more than 10 people, the likelihood is that you have a neurodiverse workforce. You absolutely do. The other big important thing, and I'm sure you'll concur here, is that by thinking about what a neurodiverse workforce looks like and how to best support it, you are helping support and make your workforce better for all your employees.

Louise Chesney (01:48):

Absolutely. And the other point to make is that individuals within your workforce that are neurodivergent have been hiding. So they've been camouflaging, they've been masking their behaviors because they don't want to be detected. There's a lot of stigma that's attached to conditions like autism, ADHD, and dyslexia. And it runs through organizations, it runs through all facets of society. But what's happening now, and Tara alluded to this, is that people are becoming more self-aware of their own neurodivergence. And because information is so easily accessible right now through the internet, and clinicians are becoming more aware about how neurodivergent manifests in adults today, that people are coming forward and saying, oh my goodness, I'm maybe autistic. I may or may not want to self-diagnose, but I tick these boxes off. Isn't that just something.

Tara May (02:54):

It's so true. I was going to say it's the one good thing I'll say about social media, which I won't say very many good things about social media and mental health, but I will say with TikTok especially, you see these autistic TikTok. or ADHDers on TikTok, and people can all of a sudden see that there are other people who look like them. They can see representation of that. They can see that it's not a bad thing to know and understand yourself. So I think we are seeing it. We're seeing neurodiversity. ERG groups have a great moment in time too, right? I mean, that wasn't something you heard of even two to three years ago, and I'm hearing them popping up everywhere, and I think it's so exciting.

Paola Peralta (03:34):

No, I'm relatively young, but I never knew. It was really through TikTok that I realized that I had a lot of the boxes for ADHD, which I didn't even realize because when I was little, that wasn't something that was being diagnosed. And if it was, it had a taboo attached to it, so parents didn't want to diagnose their child. But in a segue to that, what are some things that could be, what are some things, common things that we find in office places now that could be hard for neurodiverse people to coexist and to work efficiently to feel accepted? What are some things that we're seeing unfortunately still prevalent in work culture that I know you guys are addressing independently through your own work, but what are some things that we unfortunately still do see in most companies?

Tara May (04:12):

The list is long. Do you want to go first or do you want me to?

Louise Chesney (04:16):

I could start talking about, well, the issues run across the entire employment journey, or I should say employee journey, starting from sourcing and running through performance management. So with sourcing, one of the biggest issues that we're faced with is this idea that if you were to be qualified for a position, you would need a college degree for that position. There is too much emphasis on pedigree when it comes to hiring and less emphasis on skills. And a lot of neurodivergent individuals have not been successful in the traditional education system because it hasn't been accommodating to them. So what ends up happening is that when they leave the system, some of them actually thrive because they do a lot of self-study. And I could speak for myself. There are so many textbooks on my Kindle device, it's unbelievable. And I self-educated myself. The reason why I am where I am today is because I didn't get a graduate degree. I took all the courses that I needed to fulfill those credits on my Kindle device.

Tara May (05:29):

Our inner introverts and nerds are allowed to thrive after high school, right? It's true.

Louise Chesney (05:34):

It's true. And I emphasize that it's a Kindle device because I listen auditorily, I do struggle sometimes with reading comprehension. So by reading what I'm learning, it has really accelerated my learning and to the point where it's kind of unhealthy for me. I'm like, I need to get out of the house. But this is a common experience that a lot of neurodivergent people face, but unfortunately, it's harder for them to present these skills and talents in the interview process. One because they don't have the pedigree, and two, it's because there's no way within the interview for the person to appropriately demonstrate their skills. They're tested on their ability to talk about what they did in their previous position. For many individuals, that can be a struggle.

Tara May (06:32):

Absolutely. They're also asked to have superb and superior social cue reading, and that can be really hard for someone on the spectrum. And if you aren't making adequate eye contact or being as effusive as a neurotypical wants you to be, a lot of times that can hurt you in the job interview when you might be excellent at the job, and that might have absolutely nothing to do with the skills you're going to need once you get there.

Louise Chesney (06:59):

Absolutely, absolutely. We need to retrain hiring managers on how to appropriately interview candidates and not just within a specialized hiring program, which are spurring up, but across the board in our infrastructure. So the traditional process that we follow today is not conducive to anyone because managers may not be equipped to know what questions to ask. They might not have enough information about the candidate in order to make a decision. And going back to our point about pedigree and skills, one way to circumvent that, which could be very efficient is assessments, like running assessments, using affirming tools which we can provide, which we can mention today, and offering that information to the managers as they're interviewing. So Frontloading, the managers, frontloading, the interviewees in the process. It's just the best way to make the best decision and to avoid situations where it can be a lost opportunity for the employee and the employer.

Paola Peralta (08:13):

And Tara, I know this because I'm familiar with a spirit tech, but like I said, a spirit tech has an enormous population. It's really the population you guys cater towards when you're recruiting, and there are a lot of physical boundaries as well the office places have. And so what have you done at a spirit tech and what should employers be considerate of when they're talking about the physical aspects of an office and the things that could be overwhelming to a neurodiverse person and also Louis, feel free to chime in on that as well.

Tara May (08:39):

Yeah, absolutely. So lots to talk about here as well. And we're especially conscientious about it at API tech because as you mentioned, more than 93% of our team is autistic. But these are things that can be powerful and troubling in any workplace. So one is just as simple as lighting, right? Lighting and especially the fluorescent lighting that we sit under all day every day can be a huge sensory overload for people. When you think about sounds, when you're in big office spaces, there's often a lot of echo. There's often a lot of reverberation, there's a lot of murmur inside of offices that for some people they can just fade into the background. And for other people it can be debilitating to thinking and focusing. So being really cognizant and conscientious about what the space looks like is huge, but also being open-minded about remote work, and I think we can all attest that the ability to work from home or work remotely is life-changing in terms of fulfillment and joy. But it is especially crucial and we've found to change the game for people with disabilities, whether it's physical disabilities and the amount of energy and time it takes to get to work, but also the ability to create a space for yourself that works for your sensory needs and your mental health needs, which is important for all of us, but especially important for neurodivergent people.

Louise Chesney (10:08):

What we want to strive is creating a workplace culture where everyone feels included, but that is a tall task. So remote work might be the best short-term solution for someone who is neurodivergent. And because like Tara was mentioning, it enables them to create the workspace that is conducive for them, but also they don't have to face microaggressions in the office every single day, which over time can negatively impact their wellbeing. But what we also want to do in tandem to that is to change our workplaces. We do want to get ourselves involved in change management. Kind of going back to our point about the sourcing issue, the interviewing issue, and then the onboarding issue, performance management issue. There are so many touch points within the employee journey where there are biases that are baked into the process that edge out individuals who are neurodivergent. So it's important to be cognizant of that.

Tara May (11:25):

I was just going to add one thing. I think you make such a good point about the microaggressions, and I would even add perceived microaggressions because hand in hand with neurodivergent is often anxiety and depression that are exacerbated. And what I see in a lot of our team members is some real deep seated and confidence issues. And overcoming those in the workplace can be really difficult for lots and lots of marginalized groups and especially neurodivergent people.

Louise Chesney (11:56):

Very, very true. This is why it's so important to have training, which is what Rethink care offers for managers who are working with individuals who have had a lot of negative experiences in their career. So they are coming into the new workplace with these assumptions that they're not going to be promoted for a position, they're not as good as they actually are. So their confidence is not aligned with their competence. And so it's about training managers to be in tune to that, in tune to those quiet employees that just put their heads down and do the work, but they may not connect with others very easily, at least on their own terms, and they don't have visibility at the company.

Tara May (12:47):

And you talked about performance feedback. It's so critical for all people, but neurodivergent people especially to hear positive feedback in addition to constructive criticism and direct discussion about things to work on. And there's a lot of psychological studies that show we need five to seven positive compliments to offset every one negative thing we hear about ourselves. That one negative thing can sit with you and hurt you for so long. It becomes so overpowering to anything good you hear about yourself.

Paola Peralta (13:22):

And Louis, something that's really amazing about Rethink care that, again, I'm privy to thankfully because we've spoken about this previously, but it's the fact that a lot of your programs are also catered towards parents of neurodiverse children and kind of fostering that understanding even in people who are neurotypical or perceived to be neurotypical. And so why is it so important to even have these programs reach out to people who may not be on the spectrum? They benefit everyone.

Louise Chesney (13:48):

They do. And to Tara's point before, a lot of parents are becoming more self-aware of their own neurodivergence through their children's behavior, which is why when we think started, we were predominantly focused on helping the child through the parent. So providing the parent with resources to help their children with developmental differences thrive in the school and in the home. And what we were seeing is a lot of these parents through our one-on-one consultations, they were saying, it's hard for me to implement some of these strategies because I struggle myself. I'm disorganized. And so that was what spurred rethink care to expand our offering to just parents of children with developmental differences. But now to adults, and we are looking at our model today and we see that the adults are being underserved. You wouldn't believe how difficult it is for someone who is autistic to find the right interventions when they're struggling with depression and anxiety, they go to their EAP, but it doesn't require that specialized intervention that they need or also that longevity of support that they need. And the counselor may not even be qualified to work with somebody who is on the spectrum. So we were just filling a huge, huge gap.

Paola Peralta (15:40):

And it's also a DEI problem in a lot of places. I think that a lot of companies and employers don't consider neurodivergence a diversity initiative. And so what makes Neurodiverse talent such a critical part of DEI strategies? And again, I know that I'm talking to the CEO of a company that is doing this wonderfully and a company that is catering to this demographic, but for other companies who are trying to up their strategies and maybe have not implemented strategies for neurodiverse talent, why is it so critical for them to start?

Tara May (16:11):

Well, first I'll just say I think you're so right. And not only do we not think about neurodiversity enough when it comes to de and I initiatives, we don't think about disability very often either, and it's such a critical piece of all of this, but why is it so important to have all kinds of perspective in the workplace? Because if you want to build a product for the entire world, you need to think about the entire world. If you want to build a service for everyone, then you need to have it built and done by everyone. So this idea that you need a wide range of brains and thoughts to fulfill a D&I quota isn't true. You need a wide range of thoughts and ideas and kinds of brains to make something innovative and fantastic and to drive revenue at your organization. So I often say it's a business imperative as much as anything else. And we find that to be true at Spirit Tech. We have incredibly talented people. Harvard Business Reviews study shows that when an autistic person is paired with something that they're passionate and good at, they are five times more productive than a neurotypical person. So there's something special there, and we all have something fantastic to offer in our workplace.

Louise Chesney (17:26):

And that's such an interesting point because when we think about some of the adjustments that we are making for autistic individuals that can be applicable to anyone, so ensuring that people are matched to the specific roles or given the specific tasks that align with their strengths, why wouldn't companies want to do that?

Tara May (17:50):

A thousand percent? This is one of my favorite things to say, right? When you can match someone's passion and strength with a business need, you are going to make money. That is such a critical and baseline thing to think.

Louise Chesney (18:03):

Right.

Paola Peralta (18:04):

And I think a lot of companies don't see neurodivergence as a strength. So I love that a part of this conversation has genuinely just been saying that neurodivergent talent can be just as good as better than neurotypical talent. And so how can companies go about implementing day-to-day strategies, conversations, addressing it in the workplace, even if it is just opening the conversation, what are some maybe small scale things, first steps that they can take to kind of get it kickstarted?

Tara May (18:32):

So the first thing I always say, right, is thinking about mental health in the workplace, and neurodiversity in the workplace means talking about mental health in the workplace and neurodiversity in the workplace, pretending it's a stigma or a taboo is the first problem. And then even positive stereotypes are still stereotypes. So I just try to think about the individual, what are their strengths? What are their support needs? Because every one of us has strengths and we have things we need support on. And so that's no different for neurodivergent people and neurotypical people, but what it is going to help you do is be a better manager and a better leader who's leading from a human first place and trying to set up your team members for the ultimate success.

Louise Chesney (19:20):

Absolutely. There's a behavioral scientist by the name of Todd Rose, and he coined the term Jaggedness principle. And it means that all of us, whether we are neurotypical or neurodivergent, have a jagged profile of strengths and challenges. But for somebody who is neurodivergent, the peak of their strengths is the same degree as the dip of their challenges. So to illustrate, early in my career, I struggled with communication, believe it or not, as a child, I didn't speak in school, I would've been diagnosed with selective mutism. But through strategies I was able to overcome, but still, when I entered the workforce, communication was a struggle. And in my prior company, every single performance review in the opportunities for growth, it would state something about communication. And that was what really put a dent in my ability to progress more quickly in the organization. So where I'm going with this is even though I was demonstrating a lot of strengths, I was actually producing a lot at the company to the point where the work that I was doing was gaining visibility at the very top of the organizations, the CEO, but I was stagnant in my position because I didn't talk about it.

(20:54)

And so the communication piece was the area that I was weakest in, but that was presenting a barrier for people who were making the decisions on top to see the strengths that I was offering the company.

Tara May (21:14):

Well your coping skills are clearly working because you're an excellent communicator, but I think you make such an excellent point, and we see that also neurodivergent things make you passionate about certain things. So one of our program lines is accessibility testing. So we're testing websites, software apps to see if they're accessible for people with visual impairments, hearing impairments, physical mobility limitations. So our team is so passionate about that because they know what it's like to live in a world that's not built for them, and they want to help make the world built for everyone. So to see them be really just diligent and passionate and excited about accessibility testing and digital accessibility and changing the world to open it up for everyone, I think is inspired by their neurodivergent. Right. And I think you see that too with our inclusion efforts. We have an LGBTQIA plus group, we have a gender identity group, we have a women's group, we have an autism advocacy group, and this team is so passionate about making sure everyone feels included in the workplace and finds their community in the workplace, because often for the first time ever, they found their own community.

(22:34)

And so I think when you have certain life experiences, it makes you want to make the world a better place.

Louise Chesney (22:43):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Paola Peralta (22:44):

And I love what you said about they're used to living in a world that was not made for them. And so as two people who work in this sphere and see this every day, what is kind of your hope going forward? Again, we've talked about this is not necessarily new for workplaces, but it might be new to employers. So what is your hope for the coming years and the continuation of the conversation on Neurodivergence? In a perfect world, if we could imagine in 10 years that we've progressed a lot, what is kind of the perfect workplace for you guys, for everyone, for every neurodivergent person?

Tara May (23:17):

Me first, or you?

Louise Chesney (23:20):

You can go.

Tara May (23:20):

Okay. So I have so many hopes and dreams, but I think at the core of them all is that we make workplaces where you can come and be a human and be exactly who you are. And I think that encapsulates so many different kinds of diversity, certainly neurodiversity, and we flip this corporate culture on its head that workplaces can't be a kind place that think about mental health and think about people as people. We are humans 24 hours a day, and that does not stop from Monday through Friday, nine to five. And so I dream of creating not just a Spirit Tech's workplace to be a place where all people are welcome and they can come and be exactly who they are, but to inspire all workplaces to be like that and to understand that that level of psychological safety and that kindness is an ROI for your business.

Louise Chesney (24:21):

Absolutely. Absolutely. What I dream being that we're in a conference that is focused on benefits is that what we are faced with today is benefits, is sort of a conversation that's happening outside of the employee experience. It's there, it's communicated through ERGs, it's communicated through campaigns. But my dream is that benefits become a topic that enters into the conversation and every single touch point of the employee journey. And it's possible through neurodiversity principles, because it starts with, and Tara was alluding to this, about the strengths and challenges that we face in the workplace and the strengths that we can bring to the workplace that are unique and innovative, that can bring products to new products to market, and all this and that. But in that same conversation, talking about the challenges that a person may face and the things that within the workplace that can be changed in order to make that person feel as if they can work at their optimal level, but also understand that there are certain things that workplaces can't do, and that's where benefits come into the conversation. So I feel like that linkage can happen starting with what kind of teams can I build out where each member has strengths and challenges that compliment each other? What are the things that the workplace can do so people don't face the same issues that I had faced with the communication, which presented a barrier? And then talk about benefits. What are the things that the workplace can't offer?

(26:21)

For instance, what RethinkCare does for parents and offering access to BCVA support that entering into the conversation in manager check-ins weekly check-ins talks about compensation. Yeah, that's what I dream about. I don't dream about these campaigns anymore. I want benefits to be talked about continually. Yeah.

Paola Peralta (26:48):

30 minutes flies when you're having good conversation. And thank you so much, both of you for coming and talking about this. It genuinely is a topic that I hope that we continue to talk about forever until it's normalized everywhere. And thank you guys so much for joining us today.

Tara May (27:03):

Thank you for having us.