- How to build a business case that secures buy-in from key stakeholders, including executive leadership, HR and well-being champions
- How to identify emotional and mental health needs within your workforce and develop a specialized training program for employee volunteers who are interested in supporting their colleagues
- How AECOM recruits the right volunteers to take on the role of "Mental Health Ally" and actively manages and engages the global network in supporting employees and their families.
Alyssa Place (00:07):
If you're comfortable everybody to maybe fill in a little more towards the front, we'd love to get a little crowd interaction. If we could perhaps move a couple rows forward, that'd be great. I also like to welcome our panelists today. You guys want to hop up on the stage? Alright, well thank you everyone for sticking around and joining us for our afternoon sessions. Hopefully everybody got to have a little puppy time. I know Bernie is representing for that group. I don't know if you could see, but he has dogs embroidered on both his pants and his shirt.
Bernie Knobbe (00:52):
You can't pet them, but it's all about the good wellbeing moment, right, of having your animals with you.
Alyssa Place (00:59):
Yeah, There you go. So I'm Alyssa Place, executive editor at EBN, and today I am joined by our panelist Danni Portsmouth, Vice President of HR for the West Division of PepsiCo, where she's responsible for talent management, performance management, staffing and employee relations in the Western United States. And also joining us is Bernie Knobbe, Senior Vice President and head of Global Benefits and Wellbeing, corporate HR at AECOM, where he is responsible for healthcare, retirement group, voluntary lifestyle, perks and wellbeing benefit programs and benefit communications for the globally. So today we're going to touch base on the state of mental health and wellbeing in the workplace and where employers and leaders should still be investing. And I'd love to just get started with a bit of a status check. I know over the past couple of years, mental health has been top of mind, health and wellbeing. Is mental health still important right now? What is the status of our mental health and wellbeing and the conversation that we're having about it?
Bernie Knobbe (02:08):
Go ahead. You're next to her. So I'll let you go first.
Danni Portsmouth (02:11):
I think that mental wellbeing is more important than it's ever been. And so interesting to me, even as we walk through the stands, how many were about mental wellbeing And I think in every topic today, mental wellbeing has come up, whether that's ai, financial planning, and I think it just shows the holistic nature. I think what the pandemic did for us was actually to bring it more to the top of the agenda. And certainly this mental wellbeing is something that touches all of us. I certainly have had challenges with my own mental wellbeing in the past and had to reach out and use the benefits programs that are offered in the workplace. I think that they're now just much more holistic and we start to break the taboo.
Bernie Knobbe (02:56):
For us at AECOM, we actually call it emotional wellbeing. We tried to be just a little bit broader than just mental health because in many ways, whether it's physical, emotional, et cetera, it's all part of your wellbeing state of how do you bring your best self to work and all the aspects of wellbeing are associated with that. But I think the pandemic really highlighted something that had been out there for a long time, which was the struggles that maybe individual families or employees were having, but they weren't willing. And in many ways it wasn't acceptable to speak about it or talk about it. And so during Covid, I think a lot of people went into each other's homes and they saw the families and they saw where they were working from. But then also I think they were a little more willing to share some of the struggles that they have.
(03:44)
So now that we've come out of some of the challenges around covid, now we're realizing that it's just much more transparent than it used to be, which is really good. But that also means we as employers have a responsibility to say, well how are we going to help these employees or their managers with it? And that's the one thing we've really found I think is eye opening to me anyway, is the managers need the support because employees often go to them, that's their first contact in the company. And so if we don't empower them and educate them and give them tools and resources, they can't assist the employees and it's just a lost opportunity. So I'll talk a little bit later about some of the things we've done over the last couple of years, but also I'll just say to all of you, make it your own wellbeing. I just reach in my pocket here. And who's two baggies? We have two dogs. I always keep these in my pocket because if you have dogs, you know, always need them handy. But when I'm traveling, it's just a nice reminder of the kids at home. So everybody has their little ways of things that you can do to help you when you're having that stressful, less than optimal mental wellbeing for the day. So I'll just share that.
Alyssa Place (04:55):
I mean I think it's really interesting that you brought up the manager piece as well and how important that is. I mean, I think especially as leaders, it's very difficult to sometimes be vulnerable. Can you talk about how Covid and really the change around de-stigmatizing, discussing mental health, what that means for you as a manager and a leader and how you've been approaching that over the last couple of years?
Danni Portsmouth (05:22):
Yeah, I certainly start. So I think what's really interesting about, and as Bernie said, we were in each other's homes and as we were going through, I was working with a senior leader and we were running a town hall and his kids came in and somebody said to me afterwards, I didn't even know he had children, which I thought was just really interesting of how guarded we'd been. Now you can hear from my accent, I'm from the UK so maybe it's a bit more of a British thing. But I think what that really lent to is actually saying, I'm not okay, I'm struggling with this. I need some help. And as more people said that, and again as I said, the taboo broke, I loved the conversation earlier about leading with empathy and that is something I personally have taken as a leader. But also we are at PepsiCo trying to really make sure that our leaders are equipped with, as Bernie said, the tools and the techniques, but also the ability to speak with authenticity about what they are personally experiencing.
(06:20)
And I think we certainly come from a place where we're not hiding, but we're not open about why we are missing that hour in the day. And I loved what was happening in the last talk about how do you normalize it. So quite often now we are saying, Hey, I'm off to pick up my child from school, or I'm doing some exercise in the morning so I won't be available for that. And just really making sure that those boundaries are clear, but we're being authentic about why they're there. So I think that's definitely part of the leader's journey. And then as we are reaching out and using the tools, we are, as I say at PepsiCo, we are focusing on psychological safety. How do you create an environment where somebody can say, I'm not okay really, and then not freak out when they tell you something. That's a bit difficult. And certainly we've had many instances of that for a variety of reasons. And so that's been really critical area for us to build, particularly in financial wellbeing as well. And again, we're talking about the holistic approach. I can talk a bit more actually about what we've done in some of our countries is to build this concept of the mental health first aider, and I dunno if you use the term first, ADA in the US.
Bernie Knobbe (07:36):
We actually use the mental first aider in the UK and Australia as well. Yeah, same thing.
Danni Portsmouth (07:41):
So the mental health first aider is about being trained to see the early signs of mental wellbeing distress right through to really a moment of crisis. And we are not training people to be counselors or psychologists, but what we are training them is to notice, to see the small things right through to the big things and knowing what do they need to do in that first instance. A bit like if somebody collapses in front of you, you probably know you need to put them in recovery position. If somebody comes to you and says, I'm having suicidal thoughts, we haven't been trained for that. And so this is what mental health first aid is something that's really about creating allyship around this topic that has been very challenging over the years in terms of its secretive nature. And I think that that's therefore really important as we come through.
Bernie Knobbe (08:32):
She not only has a great accent, but she comes from a country that is further ahead in some of this than we are in relation to in the UK and Australia. They've had the first eight or certification for a while, I believe it's a two day certification. So it is a dedicated, concentrated effort. And so what we decided at AECOM was, and we had the support of blue communication, so I mentioned earlier today and we actually created what we called our Mental health allies network. And we started with a pilot in Asia last fall. And then once that got going, then we started expanding it and into Europe, although the UK already has a program, so we sort of did it everywhere, but we still offer it as well. But then we eventually expanded into other areas and so now it's a global network and it's about 75 individuals in the company who have either stepped up and just said, I want to help others.
(09:25)
They're just wired that way. Or they are individuals that are just very interested in helping to promote emotional wellbeing in the organization. So they go through a four hour training session, and again, they're not therapists, they're not counselors. I'm actually a mental health ally. I happen to live with a psychologist, but that doesn't make me one. But it's that ability to have someone to go to and say, I don't really know what to do. I don't feel comfortable talking to my manager about this, but here's what's going on in our family going on with me. And then they can help refer them to resources as appropriate. They may say, oh, you should talk to EAP, or they may say, no, actually you should talk to your mental health provider. Or they may just say, you really should talk to your manager about this. This is an important aspect of your employment and also your success in your career, et cetera.
(10:15)
So they're really acting as a conduit between the individual having an issue and where can they get support and resources. So that's one thing we've done in the last year that we're pretty proud of. And when you actually go on, I think I shared this morning, wellbeing@AECOM.com, if you go on the site, you'll actually see that you can get into that. Now we're going to see who those people are. So you can't because you're not an employee, but you can see that there's information. But if you're actually an employee, you could go in and actually see who those individuals are and there's a little bio about themselves. So you also can try to go down that ED and I or ERG path and say, well, I want to talk to someone that's from my community that maybe can understand my needs even more. And so it really helps people to know there's someone on the other end that can help you with that.
(11:04)
And then we actually do office hours once a month for two hours where people can just call in if they want to talk to someone versus reaching out directly and but we have an opportunity to promote that once a month, which is a good way to get the word out. The other thing I'll mention is you talked about health and safety two, three years ago we actually, during the Covid Health and Safety was as concerned about employees wellbeing as we were. And so we actually worked together and we created an opportunity for employees to actually see the resources that are available in a different way. So we created a program called Are you okay?, and it was to help managers to ask the questions on their one-on-ones, their touch bases. But then the second year we did that, we gave them a lot of resources, either questions to ask or just things, how do you probe if someone opens up that door?
(12:01)
But then in the second year it was, are you okay really? Because what happens is when people say, how are you? Oh, I'm fine, but you really should go to the next question. Say, well, how is the family? Are you really fine? How are you doing at work? Are you struggling? You need to feel comfortable enough to go one step further. And that's usually where people then are a little more willing to share. So those are just a few of the things that we've done over the last couple of years to sort of raise visibility. But I have to say because of our wellbeing, program leadership are starting to do this too. And in fact, one of our leaders in the UK just last week held a town hall and it was specifically related to World Mental Health Day, which I believe is October 12th. I know it's coming up. And so it's to just talk to employees about it and show that you mentioned vulnerability, but that leadership does support this. I think if they feel leadership talks about it, it's okay to talk about it. So anything you can do to bring in your leadership will certainly work to your favor.
Alyssa Place (13:05):
So many of the skills that we're talking about creating psychological safety, being empathetic, I mean it's very difficult to teach that. So I'd love to know, Dannie, what are you doing at Pepsi or what is Pepsi doing to kind of formalize that mental health training? What programs do you have available and what are some of the things that you're doing to really fold that into the way that the company operates?
Danni Portsmouth (13:28):
Yeah, that's a great question. We're doing a whole host of things. We're not actually tagging it mental wellbeing. We're talking about how can you do proactive things that are going to help a bit like having an open conversation and really digging a bit deeper. We're doing a whole host of resilience training, so we're helping people at an individual level. So it's less about the leaders, but as an individual to understand what is your energy like, what do you need to be aware of, what might be triggers for you and how can you go about making sure that you're on top of those things? We're training our top hundred leaders on really where does energy come from? And we use a partner to do that, that have been training athletes. So now we're looking at this concept of corporate athletes, and you might be surprised to hear part of that training is about helping people to sleep well, and it's a bit negative, but in prisoner of war camps, the first thing they do is deprive people of sleep.
(14:26)
It's the first thing, first thing that happens. And we don't make the connection really to how do we fill up our own bucket and make sure that we've got the right energy levels. So as I say, we've been training our top hundred in Sleeping Well, nutrition Energy, again, this is all linked to resilience training. And what I would say is our most senior leadership team in the West division, we gave this training to their energy went up 30% for the group. The energy went up 30% in a nine week period. The number one reason the energy had gone up was they were sleeping better, they'd taken these techniques and they're the things that we all know, right? But there've been a real commitment to making sure that was happening. And of course the energy came up, therefore the resilience is better. And then we're also doing some specific things around increasing the amount of counseling sessions that we give.
(15:15)
So through our employee assistance programs, we offer six sessions. We're now increasing that to eight. We're making it easier for people to access therapists when they need them. And these sound like small changes, but actually what we found, the research shows that it's about session five with a therapist that you really have got making some progress, and then session six and it's over. So how we make sure that those are there and available with shortening the response time so that people can access the tools they need when they are in a situation where this is not about resilience anymore. I need some help that is there and readily available and is there for the duration of the period they need it.
Alyssa Place (15:59):
And you brought up sleep and resilience and all of these other things, and I think that really brings up the point that mental wellness is not just about depression or anxiety or feeling sad, but there's so many other parts to it. And obviously employees have such a wide range of things that might be stressful and causing them kind of mental distress. What are some of those things that are really popping up that sort of fall under this emotional wellness umbrella that you're also tackling as we continue to expand this definition?
Bernie Knobbe (16:34):
Maybe I'll start. So for us, we've also noticed that people have lost some of the feeling of community, especially if they're not going in the office either at all or as frequently. And so one of the things that we did is we worked with the ERGs, we worked with the ED and I group and said, how do we make people feel more connected? And so we've used them as our conduit and our feedback mechanism to find out what is it that people are struggling with. So here in the US for example, last year with the Dobbs decision around some of the pro-life versus abortion advocacy and so forth. And what we found is when we held a call, 400 people showed up and they had very strong opinions from both sides. And so if you make the opportunity for a conversation, it can be very helpful and powerful, but it can also be very difficult to manage because what you're doing is saying, well, where does the organization come out on this?
(17:31)
And so I think as people are looking for the community, we just have to recognize that they expect their organization to have a point of view. So that was something we weren't maybe completely ready for. And the Women's Leadership Alliance certainly had an opinion about that. That might not be exactly the same as some in leadership, et cetera. But what we did is we reminded them we have tools and resources, we have benefits programs to help support you that you can talk to your manager about these things because just getting the conversation started is really important. Another thing I want to mention is we're a global company, so we're in about 40 countries around the world, and we always knew this, but when we went through all the work around the planning of wellbeing two, three years ago during covid, we found out there's great things happening in country and in region, but we don't necessarily know about that in the us.
(18:23)
So two years ago we created Wellbeing Committees. There's three different ones, one's strategic one's more operational, and then one's kind of a mix. And each of them serves a different purpose, but we have people from HR, health and Safety, we have people from talent acquisition, what they're hearing from employees when they come in, but then we also have rewards and HR people in the regions. And it's so great because you have people talking about success stories that they've had, but also others can build off of that. You don't have to create something nine times. What you have to do is find out who's already done it in the organization, recognize them, shout it out, but then also take advantage of that and do it in other places as well. So I think to me, one of the ways that you can empower your organization more is just to learn from what's already within that.
(19:11)
Perhaps you weren't aware that what's happening. And then again, as I said before, get that leadership support. But those committees have been really, really helpful to us. The other thing I'll just mention too is we have what we call manager Mondays, and it's mainly for managers that are new as a manager. And so each month they bring in someone to speak to those groups. And so we've been asked to do that a lot. And to me that's a really opportune moment to train people that not so much train, but educate them that there are resources available. So don't be concerned when someone comes to you reach out. There's a lot of help here, but when you're a new manager, you're trying to do the right thing and you don't have the experience that maybe some of us who are more seasoned would kind of know what to do.
(19:55)
You don't want to TV show office moment where somebody does something and you're like, oh, I can't believe they did that. Any HR person has a hard time watching that show because every episode you're like, oh, I can't believe he said or did that or she, whatever. But the point is those are all also teachable moments. And so we've actually created this year on our, we call it AECOM University, which is our website for all the various training and development programs. And there's actually a 30 minute video out there specific to emotional wellbeing and wellbeing in general, so that it's not overly onerous in the amount of information that's provided, but it just helps people to realize there's a lot of things to think about here and where do you go when you need help with any of those. So you can do it in small increments, but the impact can be pretty big if you just get it right and if you're in the right moment when there's an opportunity for that. So just some things that we've been doing, if that's helpful.
Danni Portsmouth (20:52):
Yeah, I love that. And actually, as you think about community, and as you said, there's so much great practice across the world, it's how you kind of be curious about what people need. And we spent a lot of time saying, don't assume that your experience is somebody else's experience. So for example, in covid, we were focusing a lot on keeping people safe in the workplace. And then we had an unfortunate incident, which reminded us that not everybody was safe at home. And so we had to put a lot of work into awareness around domestic violence, what strategies can people use, what are the extra tools? But it was really a wake up call of we've been so focused in one area, we forgot about this whole other thing that was happening over here. And so there is a real intentionality, and I think curiosity came up in the keynote, speak around being curious about what other people are experiencing, what's real for them, and therefore what is it that you can come in with that might be supportive.
(21:52)
I loved what you said about equipping people to have these conversations. We have spent really a lot of time and intentionality around helping people understand that they can use techniques. Tell me more. What supports do you need? And open questions that are like, these are simple things really, but most people just want to be seen. And how you really make sure that the person in front of you feels seen and feels heard quite often. They're not actually looking for a solution. And so we've spent a lot of time around that. We've mentioned financial wellbeing already, so I won't bring that up as another topic, but to link to University Point, we are also doing a lot of work at PepsiCo around training people for the future. What does re-skilling look like? How many people have we got that have really wanted to have access to a college education?
(22:46)
They've not been able to do that. And so we're running a number of debt-free programs that enable people to go and get those skills. Doesn't seem immediately linked to wellbeing, but actually just take a minute. I had a really insightful conversation with somebody who said, I'm always going to be doing this. I'm always going to be moving paycheck to paycheck. By the way, I don't get my pay all the time. That's frustration for me. So there's all these, it's the kind of tapestry of different things, but actually through the debt free program, I can see something different. And so I think really this holistic picture, as I say, it really is more tapestry and how you get into those different areas is something that our intent is to be thoughtful and connect them. We're not winning every day, I would say.
Bernie Knobbe (23:31):
Tapestry is a good word. It's like weaving everything together to have one solid whatever things. One thing I'll also mention is that we try to tie into those, well-known world days. So there's World Mental Health Day, and so I can't even think of them right now, but there's numerous special recognized global days. So we've tried to identify those a year in advance, work with our communications teams, work with our local HR, EDNI, ESG, ERG groups, et cetera, to say let's do something that month to really show that we acknowledge this is happening and we want to make sure that we support the issues that employees might be experiencing. And so a lot of this is somewhat set up for you. Somebody's created this, someone's communicated it, and it's out there for employees to see in the media or in the press, et cetera. So take advantage of that and also talk to other organizations because especially in your own industry.
(24:32)
So I know one of the things we've found being in the design and engineering industry is that we all have the same issues. So by bringing those groups together and saying, what are you doing? And then be able to say, this is something the industry is doing for our employees, really does resonate with people. And it's a nice connection to know I'm working in an industry where they have that caring culture and not just in my company, but in others as well. So don't feel like you have to go it alone. There's a lot of good information out there and there's a lot of support. Just make sure that you, one, think about it and then two, reach out to others and say, what are you doing? And see if there's something from that you could leverage in your organization too.
Alyssa Place (25:14):
And listening to all these programs, I mean if you're talking about a tapestry, it's a very gigantic tapestry, especially for both of you who are working for global companies. How are you tracking the progress of some of these programs? I'm sure there are things a couple of years ago that you had in place that you don't anymore or maybe things that you've decided to really invest more heavily in. What are some of the tools or strategies that you're using to track the progress and track how people are actually utilizing the benefits that you're offering?
Bernie Knobbe (25:46):
Okay, maybe I'll start. I almost feel like I should get up and do a happy dance. We did our first global wellbeing survey this year with our employees and really ask them what do they think versus what we are saying. We think they should respond and say, what is it that you like about our programs? So for example, our global challenges, we do two or three of those every year, and people really like that a lot. It makes them recognize that there's people in other parts of the organization, other parts of the world that are facing some of the same issues. And we have fortunately a global wellbeing website. So people can take advantage of that. And so whether it's posting tips or reminders or photos of their own wellbeing moments, it means so much more when it's coming from their associates and their colleagues than it does if it's coming from HR or from a service provider.
(26:34)
Not that that's not good content, but they really do like to see that there's another engineer who maybe was even in their office and they didn't realize it and be able to make that connection. So that's one thing that we have found to be a really good resource for us is getting feedback from the employees. But then we also have a dashboard that we've created years ago because unfortunately, or fortunately, even if you believe this is important, it still has a financial commitment to it. And so you need to have evidence metrics and analytics that support the fact that you say, this is making a difference. So we track what is it that people most use on either the website or any of the programs that we sponsor, and then we continuously try to make sure that we focus on those, but then also what could we add to that? But don't take away from the things that maybe you don't think are that important, but yet they're the ones that employees keep ranking in the top five, and there's always one or two every year. I go, really? That's still in the top five? We've had that from the beginning, but for whatever reason, it engages people. So make sure you get feedback and input from the employees, not just from yourselves.
Danni Portsmouth (27:41):
Yeah, This is great. We have some similar tools, but I would say we're not as advanced at PepsiCo as what you've just described. And I think we have a desire really to understand at a better level than we do. I think we really understand when it's access to things. So when it's access to employee assistance program, when it's access to conversion of that, we have that data. What we don't have is really understanding how did this one thing today make a difference to your overall experience? And so we are exploring with lots of different things. This ability for continuous listening, we put a lot into our front associates who are working in our frontline roles as they come in to understand what's their experience In the first 90 days, our HR teams do just incredible work in running round tables and understanding what's truly on people's minds. We haven't got to the depth that we'd like to yet, and a lot of the stuff that we are fixing are probably issues that shouldn't be there in the first place. I'm excited by this pay solution that we saw today, for example, right? Because it's those hygiene factors that we need to be able to fix continuously before we get deeper. So that's definitely an area we're still in.
Alyssa Place (28:58):
And just to bring it back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the panel in terms of you as leaders and being trained and being able to facilitate some of these conversations, I always like to ask some of the HR leaders that I speak to, how do you take care of yourselves? Because we've been talking now for 25 minutes about all the things that you're doing and all the things that you want to do for your employees. How do you show up for yourself and kind of lead by example when it comes to sort of presenting all of the values that you talked about today?
Danni Portsmouth (29:32):
Yeah, that's such a great question. These things are really easy to say to your point, right? It's really easy to tell people all the things they should. And I had a personal experience, I guess seven years ago now, where I've spent my whole career telling people, be great about, be interested in your wellbeing, sleep well, eat well, take care of yourself, hold your boundaries. And then I found myself with a three-year-old, trying to be a brilliant mom, an okay wife, a brilliant worker, a good daughter, good friend. And I couldn't do it anymore. And actually there's this great quote that says, if you don't make time for wellbeing, you will have to make time for illness. And that is what happened to me. And I had a situation where I couldn't get off the safer that day, and I'd never experienced that before. And then I had this first experience of having to use these programs and I was like, am I broken?
(30:28)
What happened to me? And that was really an interesting, I'm being very British now, interesting wake up call for me on really the importance of keeping these things here. And what I would say is every time it's never gone as wrong as that since then, every time it goes a bit wobbly, it's always because I broke the boundary always. And so I spend a lot of time being really clear on what my boundaries are, and some of my team are here. So it's a bit tricky to say this. Hopefully there are tests later. I'm really clear what my first priority is. My role as a mom, that's my first priority. So I'm going to put that above everything else. And that's not always easy in your career. And I have turned down jobs and I've said no to things that my employers sometimes can't understand. Why on earth would you turn down this big promotion? Well, because it doesn't work for my family. And so doing what is right is not always doing what is easy. And so for me, it's about keep coming back to those boundaries, keep coming back to the priorities. It's another era. I'm not winning every day.
Bernie Knobbe (31:35):
Wow, That's really hard to follow. So I'll just make a couple comments. These are just quotes that I always, you only get one ride on this Merry-Go-round is one of my favorites, right? It's like you're on a merry-go-round. It's called life. And there's really only one shot at this. So you have to think about what it is that's important to you and always try to put that first. But the reality is there's a lot of things that come in between that prevent you from doing that. I feel like as a leader, the one thing I'll leave you with is that it's truly about leading by example. I happen to be very transparent about my life, about my family and everything. Everybody that works with me and for me knows my story. There's no surprises there. But also they feel more comfortable in coming to me and saying, I have this situation going on with my child or with a family member, or I really need time off, then just take it.
(32:23)
We'll figure everything else out. But that small amount of support that you provide, which by the way is being human, but in business world, that isn't always necessarily what's always rewarded. So we have to keep that in mind. But the reality is, in the end, it is because those people will be more dedicated, more supportive, give you much better engagement in the role that they're playing, and they'll feel like they're really a part of something that is making a difference. And so anything you can do to just show that human side of you, I think is good. And for me, that's how I get my own wellbeing is knowing I'm helping others to get their own wellbeing. There's nothing like going to Disneyland and seeing all those thousands of happy people. You're like, oh my God, that makes me happy. So if you can create an environment where that's going on, I think that would be very helpful. I don't have any special wellbeing examples for myself, but I've learned one thing when I take the dogs for one of their two walks a day, I don't read my phone anymore. And that has really been a positive for me. And walking meetings is another good one. It gets you out and your ideas are much more creative when you're not sitting in front of your computer. So you've heard all these a hundred times, but they've worked well for me. So thank you.
Alyssa Place (33:36):
Well, listen, thank you both so much. We have so many big ideas and a couple of smaller ideas that hopefully we can implement just today walking out the store. So I really appreciate both of your time and all of your expertise. And thank you all so much for attending today.
Bernie Knobbe (33:50):
Thank you.
Danni Portsmouth (33:51):
Thank you.